Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Open member of the MIAX panel <unk> and
Speaker 1 00:00:02 I'm Deputy Attorney General with the State of Minnesota. Any comments and opinions that I've stated are strictly my own and should not be attributed to my employer
Speaker 2 00:00:11 And our special guest,
Speaker 3 00:00:12 Sarah Lancaster, Minnesota 2022 Teacher
Speaker 2 00:00:15 Of the Year. Thanks for joining us. This has been Counter Stories, a co-production of the Counter Stores crew, the other media group and Ampers Diverse Radio from Minnesota's communities with support from the Minnesota Arts and Cultural Heritage Fund. For a full conversation, please visit counter stories.com.
Speaker 6 00:00:38 The viewpoints expressed in this program are the opinions of the people expressing them and are not necessarily those of fresh air Incorporated its staff or its board of directors.
Speaker 7 00:01:00 You can burn whole thing down. I don't care if y'all uncomfortable, we can burn our whole thing down. Couldn't care about a another zone. You can burn a whole thing down. Y'all don't really care about a brother till we burn all thing down.
Speaker 7 00:01:21 Yeah, we about to go to work. Yeah, we about to let it burn. Like send Quill. Yeah, I bet you will Tried to skip a They've been lynching nothing in till and that's really freaking generous cuz honestly they have been killing us since we were property. No stopping me from saying how it is. This ain't the whizz, ain't no easing down the road where we live that biz. We can't go out for a jog or swim fucking a dog. Fall asleep in the car, fall asleep where we live. So we about to let it burn just like gusher say they trying but let do not care what gusher say. Put in back screens up, make a few bucks. My life ist market. Daniel. Who you think you trying to play Mom? I like the better when like, nerdy was all fun and stuff. This is really angry. Like don't you think you said enough? Huh? Well that's freaking tough cause I'm being loud and the people are not playing with you now. Yeah, you can burn a whole thing down. Yeah. Yeah. I don't care if you are uncomfortable. We can burn a whole thing down. You can burn a whole thing down. Couldn't care about another zone. You can burn a whole bang down, down, down. Y'all don't really care about a brother until we burn our own. Down down. Yeah, we about to go to work. Yeah, we about to let
Speaker 8 00:02:34 It burn. No, come on. The Youngs what I'm focused on. I'm so old than golden. I ain't know you was talking about Pokemon, but I'm more like me and nerdy next to a burn down system with a candle of gas and a handful of matches and know we ain't miss some famous Now my mission like be so here watching all the leaders leading, making Nona minions. But we torture enough to take us and we give into survivors city liars making black people compliant. Coon Rapids. Who are you asking? I'm crew. Survive the boomba trick bro. Ethics got me laughing at your message. And in Black Lives Matter, you would not get so defensive. We got cops and deans and robberies and gas light us. We are not the same. We on the scene, we passed typing cuz y'all care about us and we ain't come to ask. We just mind our business and, and people be so suck and mad. So Pastor, the gun and mask and pastor, the athe Nu Y'all can really kill us for anything. Y'all just bend the laws the same performance art, the same performative saving the racist head of normative.
Speaker 7 00:03:32 You can burn whole thing down. I don't care if y'all uncomfortable, we can burn whole thing down. You can burn it, burn it, burn it down. Couldn't care about it. Not a zone. You can burn a whole thing down down. Y'all don't really care about it brother, until we burn whole thing down.
Speaker 4 00:03:52 Burn
Speaker 7 00:03:53 It down. Yeah, we about to go to work. Yeah, we about to let it burn.
Speaker 9 00:04:21 Views from the ground,
Speaker 10 00:04:23 Views from the damn ground
Speaker 9 00:04:24 Views from the ground
Speaker 10 00:04:26 Views from the damn ground
Speaker 9 00:04:27 Views from the ground
Speaker 10 00:04:28 Views from the damn
Speaker 9 00:04:29 Ground. And that's on that, on that, on that. So welcome this week. Um, I am DJ your agender host. I use day them pronouns.
Speaker 10 00:04:41 What's up y'all? Uh, Francisco. I'm a new, new storyteller on the show. Uh, super happy to be here.
Speaker 9 00:04:48 Yeah. And with that we're gonna jump straight on to the weekly news recap. So go ahead.
Speaker 10 00:04:54 All right. Be well, uh, first of all, I just want to thank dj, you know, um, for thinking of me as like a local storyteller he, uh, that they trust to, you know, come come on here and and speak to y'all. So, um, you know, this is the first week I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be on here. I'm gonna be on here every second Wednesday of the month. Um, and my, my segment will will be about, you know, environmental issues and we're gonna be talking about them through, um, an intersection of lens. So we're gonna be talking about things like, you know, environmental genocide, environmental racism, um, cultural genocide, um, you know, and how, how, how all these things relate to, to our daily lives. But then try to go, you know, deeper into like maybe the science part sometimes. Um, other times we'll be going more into like, um, story like current stories that are going on.
Speaker 10 00:05:52 Um, and this week I just wanted to start with like some, some, some foundational, you know, um, information, um, to kind of, to kind of kick off my segment. And I, and I think it's poignant with the, with the United Nations Climate Conference coming up, um, here in November. It's about a month away. And I, so I just kind of wanted to talk about some of the false solutions that these climate conferences have offered in the past. Um, and that some people have really bought into, including myself for, for little minute. And until, you know, some people started starting to correct me on some things and I kind of opened my eyes about, you know, what, what these whole conferences are about. Um, so, so this week I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna kind of kind of dive into it. Try not to get too, too technical with it.
Speaker 10 00:06:41 Um, but I think speak about some things that, that, that not that many people are, are talking about too much. Um, yeah, so I think when we think about these, these climate conferences, it's, it's easier to picture like a bunch of environmentalists there and stuff and, and people get us together. Like, oh, how are we gonna best, you know, serve the environment? How are we gonna, how are we gonna change things around? Cause I think a lot of us realize by now that we're living within a, a, a, a volatile climate and, and it's, it's our mother earth that's, that's, that's really just trying to, trying to adjust and reorient itself and, and really survive out here. Um, and cuz it's gonna be living with, with or without, with or without us. Um, but yeah, we, we picture these climate conferences, a bunch of environmentalists coming together, but really it's a lot of, it's a lot of corporations.
Speaker 10 00:07:30 It's a lot of oil lobbyists. Um, it's a lot of natural gas lobbyists who are coming together and, and they're the people who, who this is accessible to the people who, who have the money to travel, the people who have the money to, you actually have to buy space within the walls of the conference to have to even be able to speak. Um, they're always in countries where, where it's typical to get, um, visas to travel to these countries. And, and so it's usually these oil lobbyists and, and the world powers who are really, who are really coming up with these things like the Paris Climate Agreement, the, uh, the key, the, um, and things like that, like that we've heard of. And I wanted to, I wanted to start, go back into 1997 when the Kyoto Protocol was, was first introduced. And, and that was talking, that was the first time that we were talking about, um, carbon pricing, um, carbon trading.
Speaker 10 00:08:24 And it's basically putting a price tag on emissions. It's, it's, it's telling us how much, um, we can, we can each nation or each, um, corporation can, can produce. And, and that, and then they, some terms were introduced called like cap and trade. Um, so it's talking about, there were, there were caps put onto corporations. There were caps put onto nations and, and those told those nations and corporations, okay, you are allotted this much, um, carbon that you can pollute into the atmosphere. Um, and then what came along with that was this whole other trading aspect to it where corporations and nations could actually trade how much carbon that they were gonna pollute with each other. So say one corporation is like, oh, I'm actually gonna be a little short this year. They could actually sell that pollution to a different corporation that can in turn increase their, um, emissions that year.
Speaker 10 00:09:23 And with this whole thing with the trading and stuff, it actually never balanced out to zero because there's a whole nother part of it. Um, which is like these, these projects which basically say that they're reducing carbon, um, and it's, it they're called carbon offset projects. So it's things like, um, carbon capture, it's things like, like the, these folks are literally going into indigenous communities and buying their land, buying their, and saying, oh, this forest is gonna secrete 200 million to tons of carbon this year, so then I can increase my carbon emissions by by that same amount. And what's actually happening in a lot of places in the world right now with all these, these forest fires and these forest seasons being outta control is, um, it's happening right now in reservations in California where, um, nations sold indigenous nations sold or traded or sold or, or, um, allowed these, these corporations to come in and buy these forests and then therefore is burned down.
Speaker 10 00:10:33 And now the, the corporations are holding the, the indigenous communities and saying, you actually need to replace these forests that burn down. And, um, it's just another example of, of, um, of indigenous land being stolen. And now it's, now it's not by countries and nations, but it's actually by corp by corporations. Um, and then I, I kind of wanted to talk a little bit about, um, this whole carbon tax. Cause there's like a lot, there's just a lot of, of ways that these, these honestly bogus climate conferences has come and been like, all right, we're gonna like put up, put a stop to this. But it's, it's really, really all a far send. Um, like with this carbon tax or they, I don't ex I don't, I think they're just lying when they say they expect that a carbon tax is gonna, is gonna stop a car, uh, uh, a corporation from polluting cuz they know what's really, and and what is, what is happening is we put, we put a tax on 'em.
Speaker 10 00:11:35 We're like, okay, you can pollute this much. And then these corporations know that they're gonna pollute more and they actually just figure it out in their budget, just figure it out in their bottom line. They cut wages to the workers, they pass it off on the consumers, they bust the unions to take away things like benefits and healthcare. And, and it, it's really just all coming down to the, to the bottom dollar. And, um, and that, so that's just all to say that like we cannot be continue to be like bamboozled by this, um, home, not zero nonsense because it's all, it's all trying to say that. It's all trying to say that, um, we can, we can balance out the emissions. But in rea reality, when we, when we look at it and when we really, we really think about it, these corporations aren't actually cutting their emissions at all.
Speaker 10 00:12:31 And I think are really a really, like, clear example of it is if you go on Conoco Phillips website, which is a, they're an oil company. They, they mine and they drill and they um, um, process oil and if you go on their website and go onto their like little investor par for their website, you can actually look at a little graph they have for like, oh, this is what we're doing in the, to, to reach, um, net zero by 2050. Like, they have all these little things that they're gonna be, that they're up to and it's just so clear. Like, this company that is all they do is burn oil is gonna be able to reach net zero. Um, and it's just like, you look at that and it's so clear that like this whole net zero thing is just, it's, it's not sustainable at all.
Speaker 10 00:13:23 It, and it's basically just a way to lie, to lie to the people and, and say that there were, were environmentally conscious, um, or whatever. And, um, so I I think as this, as this, this, this climate conference is, is coming up, um, we all have to just be really aware of, of these these false solutions that, that they're gonna be trying to push onto us. Um, and, and just to, just to be fighting back. Because really the only way that, um, the, this planet is gonna be able to move in the right direction is if we're all able to go tap back into, you know, our, our own ancestral knowledge. Um, and I think a lot of people have a tendency to try to tap into somebody else's ancestral knowledge. But if, if we really go into it, like each o each one of us has ancestral knowledge in us, no matter.
Speaker 10 00:14:14 Like if we're black, white, brown, anything in between. If you really go back, go back to it, go back to your people, you know, we were all once living off the land. Um, and that, and that's really the only way that we're gonna be able to, to prosper and, and live on this earth for much longer, is if we recognize that. And, and I, I know people say this all the time, but like the work really starts with, with each one of us. And, and it, and it's, it's tough to sometimes go back and try to uncover but uncover what your, what your ancestors were up to, how they were living, you know, with their first mother who, who was Mother Earth and how they were, were honoring Father Sky. But, but that's really the only way forward. And, and sometimes it's difficult, but, but I think that's really the only way that we're gonna be able to move forward from this. Um, and we really have to take the, the take accountability for, for the earth that we're living on. Cuz if we continue to let these corporations and these lobbyists to find what environmentalism is, is gonna continue to be based in capitalism, it's going to continue to be based in, in exploitation of, of not only the land but the people. And, um, and yeah, I I'm wondering if, um, anybody has any thoughts on, on any of these.
Speaker 9 00:15:37 Yeah, and I, I really, um, just agree with you that like a lot of these conferences, um, well all of these conferences are performative and you know, the, the crazy thing is that the performance even isn't even convincing, right? It's like we talk about the Paris agreement, like, um, and all that, like all of that is a pinky promise that we're going to do something. Like there's no, there's nothing even keeping these, these countries the whole, their word. I mean like, there was this whole thing where they're like, Trump pulled out of the pinky promise, we need someone to get in there, the pinky promise that we're going to do this thing that we know they're not gonna do. And I'm like, okay, is is this organized? Like, you know, like, like exactly. Like, it's just absolutely crazy. Um, you know, and then to, to see the whole performance of the United Nations. Like if you go to their like YouTube or like, well, like they act like they're really doing, I'm like, yo, y'all can't even pass anything that like, actually matters. Like y'all just pass pinky promises that everyone knows people are going to break and
Speaker 10 00:16:44 Exactly. And, and when the consequences to breaking these things are, are financial penalties, these corporations, I mean, they got all the money in the world, so they're not really worried about it. Um, and that really, the only way that we're gonna be able to hold people accountable to this is if, if, if we start to respect nature the way that you know, and stop treating it like property, stop treating our mother like property and say if someone is harming, is harming nature is harming, you know, our, our four-legged, our, our winged our fin relatives, you know, they need to be held accountable in, in a way past, you know, financial accountability because it's clearly not working. And, and, and like DJ was saying, these are all pinky promises, um, that, that are ultimately used to even bolster these, these exploitative industries and, and then divide the, the, the people even more, uh, across political lines.
Speaker 10 00:17:46 Um, just so that, just so that we got some, some, a little bit something to talk about, um, and a little bit of controversy that's gonna, that's gonna keep us apart. And, and that kind of brings me back, um, to the whole carbon trading thing. It's, it's another, um, way that these, that these global powers are trying to, trying to, trying to tear communities apart, apart. Cuz they'll come in, they'll come into indigenous communities, they know exactly when the tribal, um, the, the, the tribal leaders were changed. They'll, they know the schedule. So they come in, let's say they changed this month, they come in and, and then they promise some, some of the leaders who are, who are, who are running and who are gonna be appointed next, who, who's who next up they, they, they say they're gonna give 'em a check and, and then they're like, oh yeah, keep it on the hush hush or whatever. And then, um, if whoever's coming in isn't, isn't responsible, cuz you know, money corrupts isn't responsible. Um, it's a way that these corporations are able to garner more power by dividing the people cuz the money isn't being distributed, uh, equally across the nation, um, in a lot of these circumstances.
Speaker 9 00:18:59 Yeah. And it's all about maintaining the illusion. That's what capitalism is, that there's something that's going on to stop the issues at hand. You know, that that's why the cops are here to one, protect private property, but create this illusion that people are safe, even though we know that cops don't make neighborhoods safer. Right? It just creates this illusion. And then you see stuff like when the cops won't go into schools when there's an active shooter and then that kind of breaks the illusion for a second where it's like, oh, okay. So that's like, they're not actually here to protect us. Right? You know, they're only here for fear mongering. So, so yeah. But thank you so much, um, for bringing, um, this, uh, to the program and, um, extremely appreciate it. So
Speaker 10 00:19:47 Thank you so much.
Speaker 9 00:19:49 So with that, we are going to move on to, uh, our words, um, of freedom segment here. So Brandon, go ahead and take it away.
Speaker 11 00:20:03 Hello everybody. Uh, welcome back to Words of Freedom, a segment here on Views from the Ground where we give local poets a chance to free their minds, free their hearts, free their souls, and, and liberate themselves with their words of freedom. Um, sorry, I could not be in the studio today, had some family things pop up. But of course I'm gonna help, uh, my friend DJ out and make sure that we, uh, uh, you know, keep our spotlight going week to week, month to month, um, so that we can share some, some amazing poetry with the people here in the Twin Cities. So this month we have Rose Marie Ale, who is a ese American writer based in St. Paul. Um, we are going to listen to a couple of her pieces today. Um, the first one is titled B L m and the second piece is titled Taru or Ta.
Speaker 12 00:21:05 Black Get Stabbed, blue gets a Tear, black Bleeds Blue does not. Blue loses Job, black loses life, blue is fabric, black is my skin, blue is unlive. Black Lives Matter. I say Black Lives Matter. And Mr. Privilege replies. So does blue. He's got a business, a wife, a daughter, and a son. I say, my life matters. And the good cop replies, yes it does. And I will do everything in my power to protect and serve you, to protect you from the bullets and keep the blood pumping through your veins. I always wonder about you good cop. I wonder where you are. And yes, I'm aware that you exist and I know the media doesn't pay you any attention because frankly, doing your job correctly is not newsworthy. But where are you? Where are you when my brothers are being racially profiled? Where are you when my sisters are being targeted?
Speaker 12 00:22:25 Where are you when we need you to report dangerous and aggressive behavior? Where are you when we need you to keep your peers in check? Because somehow only bad cops arrives at the scene and somehow he gets flustered. Somehow he forgets his training, somehow he panics. Somehow he reaches for his gun instead of his taser. Somehow he aims and somehow the target is always father or brother or sister or me. Bullets more numerous than the years to our lives. Kiss us with America's love for peace and law and order, and our bodies fall to the floor so that Mrs. Privilege can fearlessly swing her purse under the protective eyes of her mailman, her pastor and her president. And they're singing, this land is your land. This land is my land. And they won't let us sing along. So please talk to them. Good cop, speak. Speak of my brothers and sisters that are shackled by the slave master named Fear. Remind them that Philando Castile too had a job. A girlfriend, a daughter. Sandra Bland was a hard worker. Jamar Clark loved his mother. Tamia Rice loved to ride bikes. Remind them that mothers don't sleep without praying to God that their sons and daughters make it home without being shot. Because black get stabbed, blue gets a tear. Black bleeds blue does not. Blue loses job, black loses life. Blue is fabric, black is my skin, blue is on alive. Black lives matter.
Speaker 12 00:24:26 The left chamber of my heart no longer pumps blood. Instead, it struggles to distribute the gut. Wrenching will to live Love, be love that is somehow spurned by every cell of my being. It's brown color resembling your dark eyes fills me with thick scalding fluid, my body rejects it, yet is forced to make use of it. Pumped blood enters my heart pumped. Tar exits blistering my arteries. Blood vessels, broiling, epidermis, hissing, disintegrating my rib cages. They're ash clings onto my lungs. They struggle to expand the tar refuses throat clogs. I feel myself desperately gasping for air. The searing liquid fills my stomach, my intestines, force it through my esophagus teeth died black, my tongue black, my mouth burns, scarring the inside of my cheeks, tearing off skin tissues and self-love tissues and abandonment tissues and trust tissues and inadequacy tissues and daddy tissues and black queer female immigrant issues. My lips part to scream, but all that escapes esteem. And the viscous liquid dripping from my lips and voluntarily I kneel, clutching my abdomen, spinning in silence. Emerald black and champagne pattern sings swirl as my eyes reflect the rug my mother loves so much.
Speaker 11 00:26:07 Can I get some snaps, please? I know, I know I'm not there. But I need y'all who is there to give me some snaps, please. Uh, again, beautiful, beautiful work by Rosemarie. And, uh, if you stick around, we are going to hear more work from her, um, these next couple weeks. And we will have her in the studio for a in-person interview, uh, last Wednesday of this month. So make sure you tune in for those you do not want to miss more from her. Um, and before we go, a big thank you to DJ for, uh, continuing, uh, the program. Uh, uh, and holding it down while I'm gone. I know, I know. They miss me. I know it's not the same without me to our listeners, you know, I hope you're doing well. I'm doing good. Just, uh, just busy. Um, but yeah, so, so we appreciate y'all and uh, I will see y'all in the studio next week. Peace.
Speaker 9 00:27:04 All right. All right. Thank you Brandon, for the words from Freedom. With that, we're going to move straight into, um, the nerdy spotlight. So take it away. Nerdy.
Speaker 7 00:27:16 Hello my guys gals and non-binary pals. It's your boy Nerdy back again with the Artist's Spotlight. This entire month we have been rocking with the one and only NACA for J one of the Premier Up and coming hip hop artists from right here in the Twin Cities. One of my favorite things about NACA is when you ask her how she's doing her responses, often I choose to be Well, you hear that? Say that again. I choose to be. Well, that's fantastic. And to keep with that same energy. This next song is called hashtag Be Well
Speaker 13 00:28:05 Searching Outside of myself. Never found what I was looking for. Knocking and picking on locks. All I needed was an open door. I had to switch up the route on the path for my greater good, tired, repeating myself, explaining That should be understood. But you can't hear me cuz you don't. Aint too, you can't feel me. You too. You're so comfortable being uncomfortable. Switch my lens up, change my angle and mind my best self when I'm with you. If that's a question that I don't need you. So I didn't leave you, I left parts of me that could not serve me for my next journey. There is a hell of aru and have you thinking it. Love it. Have you thinking your friends or even all above? I've been forgiving my fold. Truly. I'm wishing switching my Bible, like the piece I have given,
Speaker 13 00:29:05 The and the blood in mud. That different both leave you filthy. Yet both of them staying. The people got picked for my family to love me the most, me the most pain. I circle back to my circle to find out on fit square pole killing myself. My boundaries crossed and my deduce us gotta close. Cause we care. Folk. I can't excuse you. This goes both ways to own up use you. I Condo, that's daddy, it grows in his mind. Impact and trauma repeats and that falls on me. I cannot have that. I will not have that. So I am not mad. I simply refuse to let y'all hurt me and pass in my blues trauma. Something like a run. It'll have you thinking it's love. It'll have you thinking it's normal. Probably all the above. I've been releasing my goals to keep on what caused me to fail. Switching my vibe up black clothes. The piece I have given them. Hell
Speaker 14 00:30:28 Programming on K F E I is sponsored by Community Action Partnership of Ramsey and Washington County's Energy Assistance program. The Energy Assistance program helps low-income households pay a portion of their heating bills. We assist Ramsey and Washington County residents with home energy payments, energy crises, and emergency furnace repairs. We also offer referrals to the Home Weatherization program. Call 6 5 1 6 4 5 6 4 7 0 or visit the website at C a r w.org for more information on how to apply our
Speaker 9 00:31:01 Program. All right, well, welcome back to Views from the Ground, views from the Dead Groom. So, um, so I just want to, um, update people on, on what, um, has been happening. Um, so last week, um, on Thursday, uh, there was three of evictions that, of encampments and also, uh, an eviction of a halfway house of, uh, um, about 35 folks. And so, um, a bunch of people did an, uh, emergency action and went down to city council meeting and, uh, um, told them that they needed to stop, um, minutes after they had adjourned their meeting. Um, what ended up happening is people went down to, um, the, the cops went and evicted cedar in Franklin. Um, I attended that one with my friend. Um, we were helping people kind of pack up, um, and to get them transported where they needed to. And, uh, when I was doing it, the cops was, um, telling me I was too close to the line.
Speaker 9 00:32:08 So I backed up and as I was backing up, I, there was like 50 to 75 cops. So I told 'em, I thought y'all were so busy and y'all were so understaffed. And there was like 50 to 75 y'all. I said, don't y'all have a a black person to be killing somewhere? Oh. And, um, but yeah, they didn't, they didn't like that. Um, and so they announced that I was under arrest, and of course, um, and they arrested me and put me in a, um, a 36 hour hold. I was in there for 26 of it for probable cause for obstructing the legal process. So, um, so that happened and, um, but a lot of support from the community. Um, um, got me out with a lot of phone calls that were made on my behalf that I'm extremely appreciative of. Um, but with that, um, uh, we, um, we have several, um, unhoused folks that are in here that want to come and speak, um, their truth. And I want to just provide a platform for them to do that. So with, uh, without further ado, please go ahead and introduce yourselves.
Speaker 15 00:33:13 Absolutely. Uh, my name's Melanie Groves and I use, uh, she or their pro they pronouns. Um, I've been, uh, in sort of the mutual aid communities where we help each other in communities, um, do what needs to be done and support each other in ways that we can. And one of the things that I, um, found a lot of satisfaction and is being part of the mutual aid at the encampments and going, um, and helping deliver, uh, vital supplies that had been donated through the Supply Depot and other folks, um, meals that our community partners, just people who get together and wanna make sure everyone has enough to eat. Um, uh, so being part of that was really rewarding. And I never thought that I would become homeless myself. And, uh, when I did it was, it was good to know a lot of friends who could help mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but there were a lot of things that I learned that I could never have, I could never have believed. Um, when I was housed and living or, you know, every day being at the encampments, there were a lot of things I didn't understand until I literally had nowhere to go. So I've been homeless about a year, unsheltered homeless, so still looking for some housing. And, uh, I wanna make sure that, that everyone out here is safe. And these evictions have been so devastating and brutal.
Speaker 16 00:34:32 I'm Andy. I use he him pronouns. Um, I'm what you would call sheltered homeless. I don't have a permanent address and I'm never really sure how long I'm going to be able to stay wherever I am because it's essentially, you know, crashing on a friend's couch or whatever I happen to get at the time. Um, I've been unsheltered homeless for probably about a year. Um, I was already always very close to it just because I'm disabled and I'm queer and I'm at a lot of intersections. So it was always, you know, by a skin of a teeth thing. And then when covid aids stopped, that was, you know, it for me, I was unsheltered homeless. So, um, I'd been involved in mutual aid for a while. It kind of stems just from me being like, it's ridiculous. This problem even exists mm-hmm. <affirmative> and no one else is doing anything about it. So I guess I'll go out there and do what I can. Um, and just like Melanie, it was a really good thing that I already knew people doing this stuff, or I probably wouldn't be as well off as I am now.
Speaker 17 00:35:33 Um, hello. My name is Alfredo. My last name is Truk. I use a he him pronouns. Um, I'm, I'm currently, I'm stable housed. Um, I was homeless for four years though in the, in the St. Paul area. Um, I was part of the eviction process of the, of the camp that was at the base of the cathedral in St. Paul. Um, thankfully through some, through some good information that I found that I shared with the rest of the camp, um, I was able to afford to get housing. I actually was able to talk to the mayor of St. Paul and work with the, with, with the mayor, um, one-on-one to, to get me housing the same day. So the eviction was at nine o'clock by four o'clock in the afternoon. I had, um, a hotel that I was at for three months. And I've been housed now in the apartment that they set up for me over here in New Hope for about, um, three years now.
Speaker 17 00:36:29 But I'm now at risk at losing of losing that apartment because of some debacle with my social security. I am, well, I as well am disabled, have been since I was, well, 16, I went undiagnosed for three years. I had bipolar disorder and a whole <inaudible> of other disabilities. Um, I'm trying to effectively get back into school. Um, but yeah, it's just like, um, the, the, the first person was talking about on the radio here, um, it's a perspective, it's a perspective that people don't understand and it's easy to say that we're lazy or that we don't want to do anything. But until you're in the situation, you have no clue. You really have no idea what it's like being homeless. And I, I have, that's, that's how I got started on the mutual aid, uh, track to, was through the help that I got when I was at the base camp over there at, um, the cathedral base of the cathedral.
Speaker 15 00:37:24 And if you can think with these encampment evictions, if you were sound asleep five 30 in the morning and you hadn't been resting well, you had a lot of anxiety, there was a lot of stress, a lot of insecurities in your life. The only safety you have is a nylon tent. You know, and that's if you're lucky, right? Um, a lot of people are just under the stars, under a tarp, under a cardboard box mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But then at five 30 in the morning, someone slashes through your tent with a knife. Wow. They've got an assault rifle, they are wearing bulletproof vest and they're barking orders. You have five minutes. Five minutes, or you'll be arrested five minutes to gather what you can leave your tent. You don't get to take that. No one can help you move, get out. Now think of the panic and just the sheer terror of these evictions, right?
Speaker 15 00:38:13 They send over a hundred cops to, to forcibly remove people who have almost no resources from their homes. The place that they've committed themselves to making into a place of safety, a place of of community with other people a lot of times who are also homeless and they're losing all of that. They lose the touchstones, they lose their family out here, the family recreate, they lose any sense of trust in our elected officials and the city government and all these services that are supposed to help us and support us and don't mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so then you have to grab what you can hope you're gonna get everything you need, your id, your phone, your, uh, pictures of your children. It doesn't even matter what it is. The things that are important to you to make sure you can get them. Because right behind these police officers are bulldozers, right. Are bobcats. Right. And what they do, as you stand by and watch everything you have, be taken up in the mouth of one of these as trash and thrown into a dumpster, into a garbage truck that then crushes them in front of you. And that is all the things that you've been able to carry with you. And when you are homeless and you're on the street, you carry everything important with you. It's
Speaker 17 00:39:30 Debilitating.
Speaker 15 00:39:31 Yeah. And that's, it's
Speaker 16 00:39:32 Terrifying
Speaker 15 00:39:32 To, it's absolutely horrific. It's inhumane.
Speaker 16 00:39:36 Normally when somebody loses everything that they own, it's in like a hurricane or a home fire. And you can imagine
Speaker 17 00:39:43 It's a natural disaster.
Speaker 16 00:39:44 You can imagine speaking to people who have been through those huge disasters, how traumatized they are. But this happens every day, um, many, many times in the lifetimes of unhoused people. And you know, they're already, like, we almost all of us introduced ourselves as being disabled. Some other kind of minority we're already doubly triple e, quadruple, traumatized, agreed by things on the daily. So it's just another completely unnecessary trauma to add on top of it. Um, not even talking about the police involvement in these things, just the massive, unnecessary, I mean, DJ was talking about how there were like a hundred police or something and there's frequently like 50 police. And at these encampments, like on a good day, um, on a, at a big encampment, I'd say maybe there's like 60 consistent people. And at smaller ones there's probably like 30. So that's, and they over
Speaker 17 00:40:37 Ratio.
Speaker 16 00:40:37 Yeah. They also do this to one or two person encampments. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> with like out like huge numbers of police, you know, bright lights that you can't see anything. Like they, they, they know when people are not going to be there or when people are going to be sleeping so that they can take them off guard and when they're not around
Speaker 17 00:40:57 And what, what, what like benefit do they have to doing stuff like
Speaker 16 00:41:01 This? Yes. There is, there is no benefit. It just further traumatizes, people who are struggling already removes their supports when they have to move like this. And they maybe lose like their phone, their other contact things, you know, if they were getting supports from organizations, they can't anymore. Right. If the organizations try and show up, you know, they aren't there anymore, where did they go? Um, and it's really hard to get back in contact. It's like they're a missing person for a while. Um, and you know, there is no safety net for people who go through, through this. And I think the, the last survey in Minnesota, like the entirety of Minnesota, there were 2000 unhoused people in the metro. There were a fluctuating 500 people who slept on the street. So that's unsheltered homeless. I introduced myself as sheltered homeless. So that doesn't include people who don't have a permanent address, can't pay rent, but are in other situations where they do at least get to sleep in a building. Right. Um, but they are very close to obviously encampment destructions because that could be them. Right. Very soon. Um, some people who come from the encampments eventually become sheltered homeless. It's mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So there's more than 500 people that this affects. Oh
Speaker 15 00:42:16 Yeah. Oh, and and that's the numbers. And looking at the numbers, those are the numbers that the city, through their point in time survey they do every year, which is one night where they count everyone who's unsheltered homeless mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and they go up and talk to you. They find you at the encampments wherever you may have been sleeping. But instead of getting neutral parties that people may trust who've been on the street mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's illegal to be poor. So most of us have a criminal record mm-hmm. <affirmative> for things we've had to do for basic survival because we have not had supports. Yeah. We're trying to live. Yeah, exactly. And most of us have traumas because of that. We are very leery of getting involved with law enforcement for any reason. Right. And when they send law enforcement officers and probation officers to your tent to ask if your home,
Speaker 17 00:43:03 They destroy your home,
Speaker 15 00:43:04 Guess what?
Speaker 17 00:43:05 They literally destroy
Speaker 15 00:43:06 Your home. Our encampment of 40 people became four people real quick. They, and that that's the number that they report. So looks like they're doing well in their, you know, endeavor to end homelessness.
Speaker 17 00:43:16 Right. And the, the cops in in a sense become the natural disaster. Yes. Yes. Like, who's supposed to save us from the police. Yep. Right on. You know, that's the question that, that people don't intend to ask enough, I think. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and with the, especially in these days and times when the cops are supposed to be underfunded and, and not not staffed correctly, but they can afford us send 50 cops to a hundred or a 50 or a 40 person encampment.
Speaker 15 00:43:42 Yep. If they hundred cops, the money cops that they spent to evict us, to house us, we'd all be housed.
Speaker 16 00:43:47 Right. If there's something, I wanna know, how much does it cost to consistently clear these encampments and terrorize on house people. Right. And how much would it cost to house these people, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Because quite honestly, I don't think the numbers would match up and make sense to pretty much
Speaker 17 00:44:02 Anybody. You'd probably make more money. They're, the thing is they don't think long term. Yeah. They, they, they're thinking on the short term. We're like, we're like oxx on society for some reason. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And again, it's a perspective, unless you have the perspective, you don't know any better. So you can't really blame it on general society. You know, they want to call us lazy and whatever. They don't, they don't know any better is a thing. They don't have the perspective <laugh>, that's the problem.
Speaker 15 00:44:26 Sometimes it'll take us three hours to make breakfast because in the middle of winter, right. If
Speaker 17 00:44:30 You, if you even even get breakfast,
Speaker 15 00:44:32 You have to have had water mm-hmm. <affirmative> that you acquired, it's frozen.
Speaker 17 00:44:36 What happened to that cup that destroyed your tent? Did he get, did if I, you were to go to his house and break his
Speaker 15 00:44:42 Window, oh, you better,
Speaker 17 00:44:43 What would happen? You know, but he can, but he can slash your tent.
Speaker 15 00:44:47 Well, and the
Speaker 17 00:44:48 Thing why they get to get away with that Is that what I don't understand.
Speaker 16 00:44:51 Yeah. The city, the police, the contractors who destroy these encampments, by the way, they've started burning them to the ground. Right. As if it wasn't bad enough that
Speaker 17 00:45:00 What they do traumatized in.
Speaker 16 00:45:01 Yeah. What they do is they show up, they chase everybody out in like five minutes. They run their bulldozers over everything existing. They take pictures and say, see, this is what we're clearing. It's just a trash heap. Right. Well it was a trash heap. Once you ran over it with bulldozers,
Speaker 17 00:45:16 They, they made it a trash
Speaker 15 00:45:17 And they engineered that. Like when we were up at the encampment, we were
Speaker 17 00:45:20 Talk about manufacturing
Speaker 15 00:45:21 Consent, you know? Yeah. They were supposed to come, we thought three days a week to pick up the garbage. So we had those three days set out, we would get all the garbage, we'd keep it up in the encampment so it wasn't messy on the street. And then they stopped coming three days and it was two days. Yep. We finally got a hold of someone at the office to end homelessness and talked to them about the safety risks of that. And they said they're contracted to come six days a week. Right. So they were purposefully not emptying the trash when it was out. They're
Speaker 17 00:45:49 Getting paid for it on top
Speaker 15 00:45:49 Of it to cause a health problem away. Verin. And then just the, the eyesore of, you know, the fact that we don't have regular trash service and it builds up
Speaker 17 00:46:00 And that's what it is. It's the, is sore. People want that around. It's the eyesore. That's, that's what people don't understand. It's
Speaker 16 00:46:05 Like when people complain about having encampment near their neighborhood on one point, I understand they complain it's an eyesore, you know, it's a health hazard. But then I have to say, if it's that to you in a house that's a block or so away, what do you think it's like for the people who live there? Right. The city can certainly take their trash just like they take your trash. Right. They can certainly provide them with sanitation, showers, sanitation, you know, all of those things. They choose not to partially because they just don't care. Right. Partially because no one holds them accountable. People do not fight for unhoused people. There's not like an unhoused union. Be great if there was, but
Speaker 17 00:46:43 There isn't some, some kind of homeless coalition would be
Speaker 16 00:46:46 Nice. Yeah. They unhoused people, you know, obviously don't have the money to be buying politicians or like spending the money or the time to try and talk to people. There, there's no accountability for the city with these people. Like with the trash collection. Like who's gonna tell the city that they're not actually collecting trash. Yeah. Are they gonna listen to these
Speaker 17 00:47:03 Other houses? Is accountability on their side course it's, it's, the accountability has always been on the poor person. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 16 00:47:09 And um, so, uh, yeah. So the city is what chooses to create these massive health hazards on purpose.
Speaker 15 00:47:19 The city. And
Speaker 16 00:47:19 There's the city is the reason that people get frostbite in the winter. The city is the reason all these things
Speaker 17 00:47:24 People die
Speaker 16 00:47:25 Happen, people die.
Speaker 15 00:47:27 On the other side of that is that when you treat people as disposable, that they don't matter. That they aren't important. You take that on, you feel that way. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, anytime people are looking at you on the street and Right. You know, just kind of turn their nose up or Right. Our car broke down. You know, we're living in the car right now. Well kind of outside all our stuff's there. Um, but we, we had our hood up. He just needed a jump. We asked everyone in the neighborhood who was around us and not one person would help us. Right. Not one person who walked their dogs through the park said, good morning, or can I help you? Or even just, you know, this is uncomfortable.
Speaker 17 00:48:03 Well, and the thing, the thing I think any of that, the thing I think that that's responsible for that is that we're in a, we're in an economic squeeze right now. Like we've been taught to think that first of all, we give corporations a huge amount of subsidies a year. Billions of dollars in subsidies. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And they continue to squeeze the poor people. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they increase the price of groceries, of toilet paper, of everything when we provide them the subsidies they need in order to survive. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, and they, and they call it inflation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, so everybody's feeling the squeeze. So that middle class family, they may, may not be able to help or they might not be able to realize that they can't help, but they're feeling the squeeze too. You know, that's, that's another, that's another thing about the perspective of the thing is you can't really blame those middle class families cuz they're filling the squeeze too. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, and the largest terrorist organization in the world, the United States of America. Thank you. Yeah. <laugh>, you know, they can they's, the money's there, they can afford to do these things. But like you were talking about, we can't afford to pay politicians mm-hmm. <affirmative> to help us. Yeah.
Speaker 16 00:49:07 That's, that's part of the reason why we were talking about mutual aid. Mutual aid is so important for unhoused people because even when I was housed, I didn't have the time or the money to, you know, be doing what you might normally think you should do for an unhoused person. But I can still show up. I can like pick up trash,
Speaker 17 00:49:24 Say hi.
Speaker 16 00:49:25 Like, yeah. I can say hi. If I pass someone and I'm unable to give them money, I can give them
Speaker 17 00:49:30 Give,
Speaker 16 00:49:30 I give them a hi. I say, I'm sorry I don't have anything and you know, I continue on my way or whatever. Like, like I said, I am sheltered unhoused, so <laugh>, you know, clearly I can't be doing too much when it comes to money and time and things like that. And yet I still show up mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And
Speaker 17 00:49:46 Those are, I have the money are just so snotty about it. Yeah.
Speaker 15 00:49:49 Well that's rich. The difference between charity too and mutual aid. Is that right? You know, it's, this isn't a handout, this isn't a, you know, fear.
Speaker 17 00:49:57 You're investing
Speaker 15 00:49:58 In humans. We will lift you up. It's, it's okay, we're neighbors. Right. You know, I see you have these needs. I have things that might be able to help with that. Right. And then when I have needs somewhere down the line, perhaps you'll be able to help me or maybe you'll help someone else. Right. That and that just creates a, a strong and thriving community. Society. Community. Exactly. Right. And that's what these encampments are, is communities, right? Yes. And what we're doing is tearing them apart, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and it's, it's Right.
Speaker 17 00:50:26 Criminals. You're, you're tearing apart people's lives, people's dreams, people's destinies. Well,
Speaker 16 00:50:31 And here, let me, let me explain sort of what happens immediately after an encampment is destroyed. So an encampment is destroyed. Everybody's lost all these things. First of all, the people scatter with whatever they happen to have on there.
Speaker 17 00:50:43 Where, where can they go first
Speaker 16 00:50:44 Of all? Yeah. They don't have anywhere to go. Um, so, you know, maybe if you're downtown, you'll start to see people hanging around places you haven't seen them before. They're sleeping in doorways or whatever. They're asking for money in new spots. Right. The other thing that happens is human traffickers show up, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because people are now desperate. People are now terrified. They have nothing to lose. They don't know who to trust anymore. They feel totally abandoned and hopeless. Human traffickers can say anything, right. They can even just take people. Right. And like I said, there's no accountability. Who's gonna report them missing? You know, who's gonna show
Speaker 17 00:51:17 They don't care about 'em anyway,
Speaker 16 00:51:18 So Yeah. So one, it causes a huge spike in human trafficking, right. Um, drug dealers as well. There are plenty of homeless people who do use and they need help. And there's plenty of homeless people who don't. Right. But drug dealers know that after an encampment is destroyed, there are a ton of traumatized people who feel like they have nothing to lose and don't want to be around. They just want to get high. So that does create an even larger spike in, um, drug use. Right. And more sick people, more disabled people. And on top of
Speaker 15 00:51:48 Doses, doses
Speaker 16 00:51:49 And deaths. There was, there was recently an article published about near north being cleared, one of the largest, longest-standing homeless encampments in Minneapolis. There was a big spike in op opioid overdoses right after that camp was destroyed.
Speaker 17 00:52:02 And that's, and what's happening to opioids these days too? They're being laced with fentanyl. So people are dying. Literally,
Speaker 16 00:52:08 We, we can tell you all that trauma, we already knew all that. We didn't need numbers, stats and news articles to tell you that people die and disappear after this. Um, but I mean, if it helps people who can actually stand up for us, you should know that that's a thing that happens <laugh>. Right. It doesn't, clearing encampments does not help people. It does not help. The, it
Speaker 17 00:52:29 Doesn't make the problem go
Speaker 16 00:52:30 Away. Yeah. It does not help the neighbors nearby. It does not help the unhoused people. It doesn't help the organizations who were trying to help the unhoused people. Right. There is nobody, there's nobody that it helps. In fact, if you're someone who's worried about the environment burning, burning a bunch of stuff that should not be burned. Right. Um, destroying a bunch of perfectly fine things that were still serviceable and usable to the people who owned them. Right. Dumping them all into a landfill. That's not great for the earth too. No. There's literally nobody that this helps and,
Speaker 15 00:53:02 And I'll, I'll say the way that the city does this and they come in at these encampments and they say, well, you know, we've, we've offered everyone housing. Well, okay, maybe it's a shelter bed for one night. Maybe it's a three month stay in one of the tiny homes. Maybe it's, you know, it's always temporary. It's always short term. Um, you
Speaker 17 00:53:21 Know, but they, but they, but they listed in the same Yeah. In the same like mm-hmm. <affirmative> grouping Yeah. Is like having offered housing.
Speaker 15 00:53:27 Exactly. And so all of the information that people get oftentimes is not from people who are unhoused. You know, not many people just strike up friendships with people that aren't in their circles already. We all have a lot of anxiety about people that are different than us. Right. You know, we used to have people who would bring up donations and leave them at the curb cuz they, they had the heart to give, to take care of people, but they were afraid of homeless of us. That they, you know, something dangerous might be there. And, and
Speaker 17 00:53:57 That's another problem is we're not seen as people. Yes.
Speaker 15 00:54:00 You know, no problem.
Speaker 17 00:54:01 We're, we're, we're not. Exactly. We're seen as a problem and not people. Exactly.
Speaker 15 00:54:05 And
Speaker 17 00:54:05 When, when, when we can, we can, we can drop bombs on brown countries around the world. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, we can spend a million dollars on a bomber or a missile, but we can't house a group of people. Like, come on. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, how many vacant million dollar condos there are Downtown St. Paul, Minneapolis. Like, it's ridiculous.
Speaker 16 00:54:24 We, we set up that encampment outside City Hall was a protest. Right. And I could see from outside city hall, the, their basement is vacant. Right.
Speaker 17 00:54:32 <laugh>,
Speaker 16 00:54:32 There's Right, there's like tarps and boards and stuff down there. I don't know if they're remodeling or if they just don't use it.
Speaker 17 00:54:38 They haven't use in years.
Speaker 16 00:54:39 Everybody who's in this encamp encampment outside could be in the basement of City hall, which has plumbing, housing, you know, from the wind. Yeah. Everything that you would need. And I mean, maybe we're not actually going to live in city hall, but it's just, it's just a testament to there are places for these people
Speaker 17 00:54:57 To go. There, there, there, there are houses out there, there, there are apartments,
Speaker 15 00:55:01 There are places we can, a lot of the things that the city and county offer are not, um, they, they just aren't, they don't work. They're not appropriate. Right. Right. Um, when I first became house, uh, unhoused, I was offered treatment-based situations, you know, for rapid rehousing. And I, I didn't do drugs. Right. And it's like, well, I don't qualify, but I will take that if it's housing. Right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and then, you know, I, I applied for rental assistance before I became homeless. And they wouldn't give me rental assistance because I paid too much a percentage of my income. Oh my goodness. For rent. Yep. And it's like, where am I gonna rent something on a disability? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, and, and be able to, to afford it. And there's nowhere. And then when I became unhoused and the workers talked to me, they said, you have to be homeless three years to qualify for, for this program. You have to be homeless five to eight years.
Speaker 17 00:55:52 Who makes these rules?
Speaker 15 00:55:54 Right?
Speaker 16 00:55:54 I mean, let me explain to you as someone who recently became, um, sheltered homeless. So I was in my apartment, I couldn't afford rent. So I go to emergency assistance, which is what everybody tells you to go to. I say, Hey, I can't afford rent. Can you cover my rent? And they're like, well, fill out this application, fill it out. One month later they're like, Hey, you don't qualify for emergency assistance. And I'm like, why not? And they said, well, you don't make enough money to pay for rent after we cover it. You're your, um, rent is too high. Yeah. And I'm like, well, yeah. That's why I was, that's why I was contacting you guys. You're supposed to help me with my rent. And they're like, no, we're only going to pay it for one or two months. Only if you can actually afford the rent. You're disabled. No one can afford the rent. <laugh> No.
Speaker 15 00:56:40 I, I just want, before we have to go, just explain why we're here right now. So after these brutal evictions, there were three large evictions in a week. And then, you know, many smaller ones. People all up and down the river and other places in Minneapolis where unhoused people tend to find spots to hide out in to get some rest. Um, there's a huge need for supplies afterwards. And there is a place, sanctuary Supply Depot, that I, they've literally saved so many lives because in the middle of a Minnesota winter, when you are cold and you are wet and there's no way for you to get dry, you can't get warm, especially during Covid when you couldn't even go inside for any reason. Right. All the places you went to wash up and go to the bathroom and get warm were all closed. There was no respite.
Speaker 15 00:57:27 There was nowhere for you to go right to be warm. Um, and Supply Depot, they were able to raise money to get everybody heaters for their tents and propane and keep them going with hot meals every day. And all of these things coordinated through people who just show up. No one's paid to do this. And so we had a supply drive, which was part of this, to get supplies to all of these unhoused recently, really unhoused even from the places they were living, unhoused, um, get them the supplies and resources that they need. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. The other part was to make sure that people were aware of these encampment enclosures, and that we are asking the mayor and the city council to go from, you know, uh, these evictions, which are just horrific to having a moratorium. And we're not saying forever, not letting encampments be wherever, forever. It's nothing like that. Just stop hurting people now until you figure out a way to get them what they need. Come
Speaker 9 00:58:24 Up with a solution, at least
Speaker 15 00:58:25 Somewhere.
Speaker 16 00:58:26 We're we're saying real solutions, that, that burning down encampments is not a real solution. No. And chasing people around the cities is not a real
Speaker 9 00:58:35 Solution. Where they supposed to go? Where are these people
Speaker 16 00:58:37 Supposed to go? And, you know, not prioritizing affordable, low barrier housing is not a solution. We want real solutions, a real solution. Great. So,
Speaker 9 00:58:47 Well thank you so much for coming in and educating people on y'all experiences. We You're welcome. Extremely appreciated. And yeah, I just wanna say thank you again, so I really appreciate it. Um, with that, we are going to wrap up this show, so, um, we'll see y'all later. So later
Speaker 18 00:59:09 Wake up that we go back to sleep again. In between the protests is when we began and week again, we hear another, this week again, this the police. Another excuse to hit the streets again. Police black population can never be your friend. Our mothers and our fathers and our families, they be season them. They to overseers. We, the ss to them. We got a rise to the level where we ain't needing them. Everybody organiz, organize. Organize. We with all the lights. All the lights, all the lies they call with the, the black and the 45. In between the protests, we protest and realize, yes, we have to organize, organize, organize, do what we would authorize. All the lights, all the lies. They come with the take and glass. In the 45 in between the protests, we protest and realize, yes, you have to follow me, follow me, follow me. It's not.
